Lauren Chater on art, writing life and THE BEAUTIES
Pamela Cook with Lauren Chater
Episode notes
In this episode we delve into the creative world of Lauren Chater, the acclaimed author of "The Beauties". Chater shares her journey from the inception of her latest novel to the deep historical research that underpins it. As we uncover the layers of this compelling narrative, Chater reveals how modern-day issues of feminism and beauty standards are woven into the fabric of her historical fiction. With insightful discussions on the importance of art, the challenges of the writing process, and the evolving landscape of female empowerment, this episode offers a unique glimpse into the mind of one of today's most thought-provoking authors.
Transcript
[00:06:40] Pamela: So Lauren Chater, welcome to Writes4Women. In fact, welcome back to Rights for Women.
[00:06:46] Lauren: Thank you, Pam. It feels like so long ago since I was here.
[00:06:49] Pamela: I was trying to think because I know that you and Ray cans actually Kel and I when we were doing the podcast, had that like emerging author and you were the emerging author I think when your first came out. Oh, how funny. Yeah. And then I was trying to think if we've chatted since then on the podcast.
[00:07:04] Pamela: Maybe The lace weaver.
[00:07:07] Lauren: Maybe I just imagine myself on,
[00:07:09] Pamela: yeah,
[00:07:09] Lauren: I was just nodding my head, listening to people. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree, agree, agree.
[00:07:13] Pamela: It just seems like last year when it was like five years ago or something. Yeah. How long ago is it since the Lace Waiver came out?
[00:07:19] Lauren: Well, it was published in, I think, 2018.
[00:07:23] Lauren: That wasn't really that long ago, was it?
[00:07:25] Pamela: No, no. It seems, I think Covid has made everything seem like so much longer ago, you know? Like Yes. Because we've had those intervening years.
[00:07:33] Lauren: Exactly. The constantina effect of
[00:07:35] Pamela: Yeah.
[00:07:36] Lauren: It's
[00:07:36] Pamela: fabulous to have you back. Thank you. And we're gonna be talking about the beauties, which is this beautiful Oh tome here. If anybody is watching on video, you can see the beauties. It will be out by the time the podcasts come out.
[00:07:50] Pamela: You have been on a bit of a journey to use the cliche since we did last chat when you, when you had the lace weaver out, that was your first book and since then you've had Gulliver's wife and the winter dress. Yes. Correct. Yes. You must have learned a lot in that time about the writing and publishing world.
[00:08:13] Pamela: What, what's that learning curve been like for you?
[00:08:16] Lauren: It was pretty intense at times. Definitely, I, I always say that the Gulliver's wife was my hardest novel, was the hardest novel to write. And I think a lot of first time writers would agree, you know, it's that second novel syndrome you get sort of, there's a lot more expectation on you. 'cause when you're writing a first book, you're in a bubble. You don't know what's gonna happen. You're kind of hopeful. You have all these dreams for it, but you don't know what's at the end of the tunnel. But when you are writing a new book, the second book you know that there's so much work to be done and it's kind of intimidating, you know?
[00:08:48] Pamela: And, you know,
[00:08:49] Lauren: you have readers as well who are gonna be, expecting having certain expectations of the work. So that's all a lot of pressure that you probably put on yourself. So that was, that was my, my hardest book to write. But but I got there, pushed through it. I think it almost got rejected.
[00:09:03] Lauren: It was so bad. That first draft was so bad. And just me being me, I just sent it off and went to Paris. Day as you do. I was on deadline. I just sent it to my publisher. I thought, that's it. It's yours now, your problem. And then after a couple of days in Paris, I was like, is it okay?
[00:09:20] Pamela: Thinking I don't really wanna know the answer. Oh, I
[00:09:23] Lauren: know, but I'm just sitting under the iPad tower. Oh, how bad is it really? You can be honest with me. And then the
[00:09:29] Pamela: winter dress was kind of another, well, I guess you kind of shifted gear a little bit with Gulliver's wife, didn't you?
[00:09:34] Pamela: Because the LA Weaver was. Second World War Estonia, and then we traveled a long way back in time with Gull's wife,
[00:09:41] Lauren: yes. To the the 17th century or early 18th century.
[00:09:45] Pamela: Yeah.
[00:09:45] Lauren: Yeah, I, I had pitched Gulliver's wife when the lace Weaver was contracted, so I knew that I had to write that. And and I was looking forward to writing it.
[00:09:53] Lauren: And then I think I was talking to my publisher about ideas for the third novel and she. Mentioned this article that she'd read in the New Yorker about this silk dress that had been discovered by these divers. And it was turned out to be a 17th century Dutch silk dress in this shipwreck.
[00:10:12] Lauren: And they hosed it down. And then, worked. It worked out that it was actually this amazing historical artifact and we were saying, wouldn't it be cool if someone wrote a story about what really happened to the dress? And of course that was me. I had to write that story. As soon as I heard that, I was like,
[00:10:26] Lauren: that's my idea.
[00:10:26] Lauren: I'll take that. So that was how developed,
[00:10:29] Pamela: yeah, yeah. Great inspiration for that story. Story. And that was a dual timeline, wasn't it, Lauren?
[00:10:35] Lauren: Yes. That was a dual timeline. So it's got a, a contemporary timeline and a 17th century historical.
[00:10:41] Pamela: Yeah. And so with the Beauties, we're back in the 17th century, correct?
[00:10:47] Pamela: Yes, yes. So what was the inspiration for the Beauties? You know, like you had the winter dress, obviously Gulliver's wife, we had, , fantastic imagination, I guess, about who, who's wife was and what happened with her. Yeah, yeah. What about for the beauties? Where, where did the inspiration for that come from?
[00:11:04] Lauren: Well, there were actually two sources of inspiration for the beauties. So the first was that I read an article on Atlas Obscure, which is a website of all things strange and unusual and interesting tidbits from history, if anyone is, loves that kind of that kind of thing. It's really, really fascinating.
[00:11:20] Lauren: Website. And it was an article about these beautiful mistresses and portrait sitters. Who had sat for a series of paintings painted in the 17th century called the Windsor Beauties. And the author of the article described them as the 17th century version of Maxim's, top 100 Supermodels.
[00:11:40] Lauren: So they were the, you know, they held up to be the most beautiful women at court. They were very alluring. Everybody wanted to know who they were and, and and I just was kind of attracted to this idea of what that beauty might've been like and how it would've changed or if it had changed. And also this idea of power and whether beauty well it, of course, beauty is currency, you know?
[00:12:01] Lauren: Yeah. Still is. It was back then. It still is now. But what kind of, how does the power dynamic work and how does it shift between men and women and who controls that image of women?
[00:12:12] Pamela: Hmm.
[00:12:13] Lauren: So I thought that was all really interesting. And then I happened to be in a doctor's office and I read in a Vogue Australia magazine.
[00:12:19] Lauren: This story about Emily Rakowski, I can never pronounce her name, Emily Ratta. You know, she could, calls us a familiar, that gorgeous supermodels stunning woman. And she was talking about how she was writing a book of essays about her, her image, and this man who had taken the photographs of her Instagram without her permission and blown them up and put them on canvases and was charging people $10,000 to buy one of these canvases.
[00:12:47] Lauren: And she was like shocked. You know, she said that, that's my image, but I'm not getting any of the benefit from it. This beautiful image of myself. So she managed to collect enough money to actually buy one of these images, and then with her boyfriend, he put in some money. But then a few years later when they broke up, he demanded $10,000 for, his share of the portrait.
[00:13:09] Lauren: And she was like, this is just so bizarre. All these people are making money off my image, but where is the power? Like, where's my power? So, yeah, I thought those two kind of things were really interesting. And I wanted to write something that spoke to both of those. Hmm.
[00:13:24] Pamela: That's really interesting that you're kind of melding that modern, you know, story with the, the research that you did.
[00:13:30] Pamela: And there must have been, I'm gonna talk to you about the research 'cause there must have been a huge amount of it for this book. But were you tempted to make it a dual timeline in, in that sense that it does have so much resonance now in terms of what we are seeing in, you know, in the world with.
[00:13:45] Pamela: With that whole thing that you were just talking about? Yeah.
[00:13:48] Lauren: Yeah. So some of the early drafts, I did actually have a modern day character. And she was actually, it was actually the portrait, so it was actually the portrait of, anne who? Anne Hyde, who was the woman who commissioned the paintings and she's hanging on the wall and she's kind of commenting on beauty and, you know, giving us all these little asides.
[00:14:07] Lauren: But it ended up being cut 'cause it just didn't work. It didn't work with the rest of the story. It was too long and it was just, yeah, the voice just wasn't right. Just couldn't get that voice right. So it ended up being cut and the book is so much better without it. And so, that was, it was, the original idea was to have this kind of woman commenting on the modern day beauty. But , hopefully the book can stand without it.
[00:14:30] Pamela: Oh, a hundred percent. It's, it's very relevant. Before we go any further, can you tell listeners what the beauties, you know, we've, we've skirted around it, but what is it actually about?
[00:14:40] Lauren: So it is sort of a blend of real historical figures and some fictional figures and figures based on real people. But it's the story essentially of a woman called Amelia Lennox, and she is a famed beauty beautiful woman who's always sort of. By on her looks she marries into a really wealthy family who then lose their titles and their property.
[00:15:05] Lauren: And there's a just sort of the disaster and the king strips them of their, of their fortunes. And so a few years later Amelia goes to London to hopefully a, attract the attention of the king with her beautiful looks. 'cause he's King Charles ii very into beautiful women. And she's hoping to win back her husband's fortunes.
[00:15:26] Lauren: So she, and also an artist herself, an amateur artist, you know, she's really, interested in art and the amazing house where she lives. Walden is actually has this extraordinary ga gallery of masterpieces. And so she keeps thinking, she wants to get back to Walden so that she can visit, you know, the masterpieces for inspiration for, for trying this, this sort of hobby.
[00:15:49] Lauren: So so I've got Amelia and then Henry is my other character. He is a painter, an artist. He's Peter Lilly's assistant. Peter Lely was the court artist at the time to the king. And Henry has sort of fallen from Grace. He's had this, there's been, you know, an incident and he's lost his master's favor.
[00:16:08] Lauren: So his role, his goal is to get back into his master's, good graces. And the way that he's gonna do that is that he's gonna paint one of these amazing portraits that have just been commissioned, the, the Windsor Beauties that Lily is painting too. And so he and Amelia meet and sort of sparks fly and she has promised the king that she will be his mistress, but only if he, allows her to take part in this series.
[00:16:34] Lauren: And she's planning for that portrait to never be finished. She's just delaying, you know putting him off a bit. And Henry is, has been the, is the one that's given the job of painting her. So these two kind of put this push and pull between the two characters. Is what? Yeah, I think the book, it's drive.
[00:16:51] Lauren: And then the last thread of the story is belongs to Anne Hyde. She's the woman who commissioned the Beauties. So we don't know why. We don't really know why she, she actually did commission the series. 'cause it was very unusual for women of that time to be allowed to make the choices over who, you know, was chosen to sit for the portraits and things.
[00:17:11] Lauren: So I was, as I was writing, I was thinking, why, why would Anne have done this? You know? And so that, that voice of that painting on the wall, actually turned it into Anne's voice. But she's, it's set in the past, so she's telling the story of, of her youth and why she commissioned the series.
[00:17:28] Lauren: So that's sort of a slightly different timeline, but it runs parallel to Henry and Amelia's story.
[00:17:34] Pamela: Mm. I thought that was really interesting having that slightly earlier timeline. Okay, good. It actually really added to the tension. I thought. You know, you'd kind of read those sections and things would kind of spark in your imagination, and then when you jumped to one of the other characters, which is slightly ahead in time Yeah, yeah.
[00:17:51] Pamela: There was still that gap, so you didn't really know, you know? Yeah, that's
[00:17:54] Lauren: right. And she's just such a fun character. She, her voice was so immediate to me that she was, she's like most of us, she's a very, she's very normal, you know, and she's not a beauty, she thinks that she is kind of an ugly duckling and people have always told her that she's homely.
[00:18:11] Lauren: And so she thinks, you know, that she, she can't use her beauty as, as currency, so she has to find other ways to get by. So I think, and she's kind of gorky as well, and. Makes all these terrible social faux PAs, very relatable, I think. Yeah. Yeah. She was great. Yeah. And she, and of course she goes on to marry the king's brother.
[00:18:30] So James the Duke of Windsor, so she ends up marrying him. So she goes from being like a commandant, ugly duckling comant to marrying, you know, this the second, the air to the throne, basically. Yeah. So huge, you know, Ascension. And how did she get there? Is part of the, the story?
[00:18:47] Pamela: Yeah. It's really fascinating. So I'm just really curious about, you know, not being a historical fiction author myself, but a lover of reading it. You said, you know, you've got the inspiration from these couple of different sources. Sure. But then where do you go from there? So you've got these kind of, you know, you've got this idea of the whole beauty thing and the currency of beauty and everything.
[00:19:08] Pamela: Mm-Hmm. Kind of pulled from partly from modern day, you know, times. And then you've got the historical time period and the factual information about. The fact that these paintings actually were commissioned and all that sort of thing. So you've got a lot of real people, real historical people, and figures in the story.
[00:19:25] Pamela: How do you then go about thinking, okay. These are the characters that I'm gonna use to tell the story. Like how do you get to that point? Is it through your research? Is it just, do you spend lots of time to kind of daydreaming them into existence? How does that work for you?
[00:19:39] Lauren: Do you mean the main characters, Pam?
[00:19:41] Lauren: Yeah, the main characters. Yeah, they, they come pretty early to me. The main characters usually come very early to me, and then it's just a matter of kind of following their, their journeys. And in subsequent drafts, you know, just refining that making sure it's all consistent and that they have, that they feel like living, breathing people.
[00:19:59] Lauren: Mm-Hmm. I use a lot of, obviously we are writers, so we use a lot of. Our own experiences when we write and we kind of just try to disguise it really well hide it in there somewhere. So there's always parts of us, I think, in all our characters, right? We sort of draw on, you know, moments in our lives where like we might have been really embarrassed or made a terrible social pa faux par and things like that.
[00:20:23] Lauren: So I try to use experience a lot when I'm writing. Try to really, you know, ground myself in the scene when I'm writing it. I did try to plan a bit more with this. I'm getting better at that, but it's, it's hard, it's hard for me to plan 'cause I get bored and I just wanna get going, you know, and I wanna start.
[00:20:41] Lauren: So I have to force myself to stop, read, read, read, read, take everything in, and you always end up reading. The problem with historical fiction is that you always end up reading more than you need. So you kind of, I think of it as like sort of a funnel. You know, you put all the stuff in and then it just synthesizes what you need for the book.
[00:20:59] Lauren: Yeah. But you are always gonna end up with more, having to do more than you need. And what everybody sees on the pages is the tip of the iceberg really with, in terms of research and things like that. But there were quite a few characters as I was. Researching that were the inspiration as well for like Amelia and Henry.
[00:21:16] Lauren: Henry is based on a an artist called John Greenhill. And he was Peter Lilly's assistant in real life. Okay. But he he John unlike Henry, was a bit of a he was a heavy drinker. He enjoyed life too much. He was really talented. And his paintings still hanging like the Dulwich Picture Gallery in London.
[00:21:33] Lauren: But when he was in his sort of twenties, he, he partied too hard and he got really drunk one night in Holburn and fell down a ditch and drowned. Oh
[00:21:42] Pamela: no,
[00:21:43] Lauren: I know intoxicated. So it was like this life cut short, but I thought it was so interesting, you know, and I kind of resurrected him in this Henry character.
[00:21:50] Lauren: Yeah, yeah. He lived, you know, and he'd gone on to fulfill all his potential and stuff. So he was the inspiration for Henry. And for Amelia, I had a woman called Francis Stewart. Her point. Portrait actually hangs in the the gallery at HAP court where the Windsor beauties now live. And she evaded the king's attentions for years.
[00:22:10] Lauren: He wanted her to be his mistress and she just kept saying, no, no, no, and putting him off and everything. Eventually she fell in love with someone else. And he caught them in bed together. So she had to elope with elope with this other guy. But I just thought it was amazing that she managed to kind of delay his interest for so long and how, how that must have actually, must have felt, made her feel really uncomfortable.
[00:22:32] Lauren: And there are lots of recorded incidences of her looking so uncomfortable and him touching her, groping her, you know, and it just, mm. Horrendous to think about a young woman who must have had to enjoy that. But we've had the Me too, so we know what that looked like and you know, it's terrible. Yeah, it just didn't exist back then, of course.
[00:22:52] Lauren: So you were on your own really.
[00:22:54] Pamela: It's interesting when you look at all that sort of stuff, isn't it about women's roles and I mean, obviously women had, were a lot more confined in those days, in, in a lot of ways in terms of their social roles and the power that they had, but there's a lot of things that are not that different.
[00:23:11] Lauren: No. That's right. Yeah. Men in power, women, you know, young women at the moment. There's this controversy, I dunno if you saw it with over Nickelodeon. There are all these male directors and they had all these terrible abusers on set, you know, they were giving permission to all these men to contact these girls or, and they, oh, it's terrible.
[00:23:32] Lauren: They've got sort of footage of them belittling the young female actors. Yeah. Shocking. Yeah. Much has changed in that sense, unfortunately.
[00:23:39] Pamela: So how do you avoid kind of massive rabbit holes, Lauren, when you, you know, because they must be,
[00:23:45] Lauren: I follow them.
[00:23:46] Pamela: You follow them?
[00:23:47] Lauren: Yeah, I follow them because I think sometimes the rabbit holes lead to like interesting things. I think there is a point of course where you have to cut yourself off. You have to say, no, no, no. This is just not. Helpful anymore. Yeah. But I mean you've got deadlines and stuff like that too, so there is always that time pressure, once you start, it really kicks off, doesn't it?
[00:24:09] Lauren: Like once you start the process. Yeah. It's really hard to, to, to spend weeks doing something else and, and if you lose the thread as well of your story, it's very hard to get it back. So that's another good motivation to kind of keep coming back to. What's important in the story, even though you could spend, you know, weeks on those rabbit holes, so enjoyable really, but.
[00:24:31] Pamela: Any kind of gap. Decent gap. It's so hard to get back into it, isn't it?
[00:24:35] Lauren: Exactly. Yeah. That's why I prefer to really write in big blocks of time, like six months a year, just get that first draft out. Even if, yeah. So I always tell like the students, like the people that I'm teaching you know, if you can take some time off, even just work on a chunk of it.
[00:24:51] Lauren: And that's why Veruna and those kind of writing writers retreats like the retreats that you do as well are really good. You know, because you just need to get away sometimes. And I did go away quite a few times. Just get away from the kids, couple of nights by yourself. You can get so much done.
[00:25:06] Pamela: It's amazing, isn't it? Like if you've just got that chunk of time and just the head space too, that you need to just have that full concentration on what you're doing and really immerse yourself in the story and in the writing.
[00:25:18] Lauren: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
[00:25:20] Pamela: So were you able to do any kind of hands-on research with this one?
[00:25:24] Pamela: Lauren? I know for the winter dress you did travel over to Europe. Yeah. Were you able to do that with this one and actually, have you seen the Windsor Beauties?
[00:25:32] Lauren: Yeah, so I did go a couple years ago, right before Covid. Oh, lucky. Actually, I tack it onto the end of my research for the winter dress. So I went to England and was able to see the beauties then, which was so fortunate because, you know, then we had two or two years of just.
[00:25:48] Lauren: Completely not being able to go anywhere. So yeah, I was very lucky. 'cause I think if I'd gone last year, which is the last time I went to Europe, it would've been too late. I really needed to see them and have that connection and imagine them in the gallery.
[00:26:01] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah. So you, you already had the idea for this book, obviously back then.
[00:26:06] Pamela: Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:26:07] Lauren: I had it quite a few years ago. So usually working a few years ahead. And the painting that's on the cover is actually one of the Windsor Beauties as well. Oh, okay. I wondered about that. Yeah. Yeah. He's one of the real sort of models and of the paintings that the artist used, so that's cool.
[00:26:23] Lauren: I just love that it's,
[00:26:24] Pamela: yeah. Was this the title all along The Beauties?
[00:26:27] Lauren: Yes, it was, it was the title that I wanted. We had a few, like we played around with a few ideas, but it, the beauty's just stuck to me. It just encompasses everything about the story. It's the story of Amelia and Anne, you know, two beauties, maybe not conventional beauties, but beautiful spirit souls, but also women in general.
[00:26:47] Lauren: You know, it, to me it's like I knew so many amazing women and would not be here without them. The, I think the older you get really the more important those connections become. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I really wanted to. Have that as keep that as the title.
[00:27:04] Pamela: And it looks so great on the cover. It just fits perfectly
[00:27:07] Lauren: I think so.
[00:27:08] Pamela: Because you are using. You know, the, the kind of partially factual material, and then you're blending your own, you know, imagination into that with the characters and, and the different events that happen. Do you end up with quite a big draft?
[00:27:23] Pamela: Like are your drafts super long? And then you have to cut back I
[00:27:26] Lauren: think with this one it wasn't super long. I think it was about 90,000 or 85, because I know, I know that I'm gonna have to cut so much out and revise it anyway. That I think my idea has gone from being writing a, a huge draft, which is what I used to do.
[00:27:44] Lauren: I think with Gulliver's it must have been like 122 or a hundred or something. Yeah. To then just doing the most kind of basic draft that I can get out, but with still, with all the, as much meatiness as I can get in there because I, but I just know that I'm gonna have to go back and revise it, so I think.
[00:28:02] Lauren: Save myself the trouble. Yeah. Yeah. And you just get better at it. You just get faster. It's like a muscle, you know, if you don't exercise it, you lose it. Yeah. But when you're working at it every day you, you get better at figuring out, you know, how to stay the course, not get distracted.
[00:28:19] Lauren: You say go, not go off on down those rabbit holes or on those tangents where you then have to backtrack.
[00:28:23] Pamela: Yeah. And you've got more kind of idea of how much to put in each section, haven't you? How Yes. You know, and and how the story is working at each point.
[00:28:32] Pamela: Exactly. Structure of it. Yes,
[00:28:34] Lauren: yes. Usually intuitively better at storytelling. I think as you more.
[00:28:39] Pamela: Yeah. With the three point of view characters, are you writing them kind of consecutively in your draft as well, or, you know, like some people write like everything for one character and then they're kind of cutting it up and mixing it through.
[00:28:51] Pamela: How do you tackle that? I wish
[00:28:52] Lauren: I could do that. I wish I could, that I couldn't do that. I have to feel everything as it's happening and like everything in the draft has to kind of be, it has to be known, but also a mystery. It's so weird, isn't it? It's like you already know what needs to happen at a certain point.
[00:29:07] Lauren: 'cause you can't backtrack. And maybe like the halfway mark.
[00:29:10] Pamela: Yeah, I dunno.
[00:29:11] Lauren: It's, or maybe even some like 20,000 words, that's quite early on. But there's a point of no return where you just go, okay, I'm committed to this story, this particular, if it's wrong, I'm just gonna like figure it out later.
[00:29:22] Lauren: And that's. I'm just gonna keep going, you know? Yeah. And you just keep going. And it's just like having that grit and determination to go back every day. Mm. And same thing over and over again until it's done. That's what gets the draft written.
[00:29:34] Pamela: Yeah. And was that the case, even with having that kind of.
[00:29:38] Pamela: Slightly earlier timeline as well for Anne. You know, like did you, how did you find kind of jumping between time periods as you were writing that draft?
[00:29:46] Lauren: Yeah, so actually not that bad. I think because I had done the research for some of that research was for in the winter dress, like, some of that is set in Dutch 17th century, so I already knew a little bit about the politics of that time period and the characters and things like that. So that was a good way, I felt like I knew enough to write about it and you know, when you're invested vested with that authority to write, it makes it so much easier for you.
[00:30:14] Lauren: Yeah. So that, and also I had Gallup's wife as well, so the 17th century London stuff, so I kind of knew from both of those books. That was probably why was faster. But the next one, I have no idea. Like Scotland, no idea.
[00:30:27] Pamela: It's all up in the air.
[00:30:28] Lauren: Yeah, it's all up in the air.
[00:30:30] Pamela: That's the advantage of writing in kind of the same, same-ish time period.
[00:30:34] Pamela: Isn't it
[00:30:35] Lauren: so delicious? Like you can just have fun with it and, but obviously at some point you can't, you can't just keep retelling the same stuff,
[00:30:43] Pamela: the the, another aspect of the book, Lauren, and of course Art is central to the story, you know, with these paintings being Mm-Hmm.
[00:30:50] Pamela: The kind of thing that, that pulls all the threads together. And I thought , that was great because there was a, a little bit of a period there in the early section of the book where I thought, how are these people connected? You know? I know, I know. Such a. It peaks your curiosity. So you read on to keep finding out, you know, and then when you get to that moment where you think, okay, now I can see where the three of them are connected together.
[00:31:15] Pamela: And of course that is largely through the painting. Yes. And art is such a big, you know, feature in the story that obviously is part of your research as well, but are you, are you someone that is generally kind of interested in art? Are you drawn to that?
[00:31:31] Lauren: I'm drawn to the idea of people as artists and I think whether they're, you know, sculptors or painters or writers, there's things that we all have in common when we create, and even people who don't create for a living.
[00:31:45] Lauren: You know, there's something about creativity that is just universally fascinating to people. I think. Where does it come from? You know, it's how we see the world and it's how we process things that are happening and, and. Even while we're having these sort of sometimes terrible experiences, we can use that to kind of tell ourselves like a story about why that happened.
[00:32:05] Lauren: And it's kind of comforting, you know? Yeah. Art is, it's, it's provoking and interesting and fascinating, but it's also sometimes a comfort. So I'm always interested in how artists create Mm-Hmm. And in this era, I think particularly, it was, it's a really interesting time because the restoration. Was a, a great time of great upheaval politically, socially, you know England had come out of this civil war and then they had the in the 1650s and then they had the puritans under Oliver Cromwell and then Oliver Cromwell died.
[00:32:36] Lauren: And King Charles the first son, king Charles ii, he was invested as the king again, you know. So. And he was restored to the throne. So it was just a really interesting time period and an interesting time period for art and also for women because he loved women and women were allowed to act on the stage for the first time and things like that.
[00:32:58] Lauren: So he gave them, like, he made it like a real decree 'cause he just wanted to see, to see women up there doing their thing instead of boys and men. So it was an interesting time for women in general and to be captured as. These kind of muses as these these inspiration, but also to think about what that said about them about their own power and, you know, and their own ability to control what was going on around them, I think is interesting.
[00:33:26] Lauren: And Peter Lely the court artist. So before. Him van van Dyke was the court artist before his, his paintings were very different. His style was very formal, you know, very like family portraits, everybody sort of stiff and in their beautiful clothes, Lily's portraits of these women. If you could think about like Norman Lindsay as a sort of.
[00:33:48] Lauren: 1920s counterpart. You know, it was very sexy. It was like suggestive. Yeah. They were langu lying back with their eyes. They call it the sleepy eye. He invented like the sleepy eye look. It's, if you thought about it as being Yeah. You know, something. Very sexy and controversial. It was just really different to what had come before.
[00:34:07] Lauren: Mm. That people would, this isn't actually quite gross, but they would reproduce those portraits of those women and they would pass them around the taverns be, and you'd collect them, like those little Oh, really? Yeah, like collector cards. Like men would put them in their pockets, you know, and then go home and like look at them.
[00:34:24] Lauren: So, you know, all these women's images were being used in different ways, but. It is just interesting 'cause it changed, it had changed so much from what had come before.
[00:34:35] Pamela: Yeah. You mentioned there the the, the thing about the theater, and I love that thread in the story, so we made a character called Arabella.
[00:34:43] Pamela: Yes. Who is a friend of Amelia's Yeah. And is a very successful actress. And of course she, we won't get, give any spoilers, but she does have some things happen that that particularly kind of highlight the, the precarious position of women. Even though she kind of had this power, you know, in terms of she was able to act.
[00:35:04] Pamela: She was very successful. People loved her, but when various things happened to her, she. Becomes very down, you know, or potentially down on her luck, but interestingly is saved by another woman. So I loved that thread of the story. Yeah.
[00:35:18] Lauren: Yeah. So that that woman Winnie the, the theater that she puts together is called The Fortune, this Play players, the Fortune Players, and they had their own playhouse.
[00:35:27] Lauren: And it's actually based on a real theater, which was called The Fortune. I read about it in a, an article in The Guardian. Yeah.
[00:35:34] Lauren: And I read about it. I was like, oh no, that has to go in. That's amazing. And it was built in the 16 hundreds in London. And then it burned down and they had to find a bunch of investors to kind of resurrect it and restore it in the 16.
[00:35:46] Lauren: Twenties, 1630s. And it ended up being funded mostly by women. So all the investors were women including the company. That's amazing. . Yeah. It was really surprising. And they put on their own kind of plays, the things that they wanted to you know, to, to act and to, to see performed.
[00:36:02] Lauren: So I thought that was really fascinating. It had to go in there 'cause it was, Mm-hmm. Just so indicative of the time. I think it was such a time of revolutionary change for women even though it seemed like nothing was really happening.
[00:36:15] Pamela: , yeah. And it's not, you know, until you really look into that time period or you have read up on it or researched it.
[00:36:21] Pamela: I guess our general kind of idea of that time period, is women just being reasonably powerless, you know? Yes. Any of these opportunities, so. I found that really, really surprising. You mentioned about, you know, you read that article in The Guardian and, you'd done all this research and, you know, also the, the other article you read, from contemporary Times.
[00:36:42] Pamela: Do you find that when you, kind of start working or start dreaming about a story that there is this kind of serendipitous thing happening and that, and things start to come together. Or you do come across something that you, you think, oh, great, that's another thing I can draw on, you know, for the story.
[00:37:01] Pamela: Yeah. Have you experienced that?
[00:37:02] Lauren: Yeah, definitely. I'm sure you've experienced it too. Yeah. Just like you are open to the possibilities of things for the story and everything that you do seems connected in some way, you are living and breathing it. That's why I can only do it in those like chunks of time because it's so exhausting.
[00:37:18] Lauren: Isn't switched on all the time to be thinking, Ooh, what about that? What about that? What about that you're like. thinking and then discarding ideas all the time. And that in itself is very draining. Yeah. But it's also makes it so amazing, you know, it's the best part of writing is that you go, oh yeah, that's gonna work and that's gonna work.
[00:37:36] Lauren: Yeah. And when it all fits together somehow , it does feel like serendipity, although in some ways you're being open to, it makes you complicit in it. You have that agency,
[00:37:45] Pamela: it's that kind of, almost that partnership, isn't it? Exactly.
[00:37:48] Pamela: How do you then find the revision and editing process when it gets to the point where you're then working with your editor? Do you like that part of the process or, or do you find that kind of excruciating? How does, how does that work for you?
[00:38:01] Lauren: I love it. I love it. I think in the old days, I like in the first few books it.
[00:38:05] Lauren: It's very daunting. You know, you get that thing and you think, oh my God, they, they send you this structural letter, you know this editorial letter, and then, then you get the annotations and you just sit there thinking, how am I going to do this? I have no idea. It just feels so impossible.
[00:38:23] Lauren: But then. Once you've done a couple books, it's just business usual. Okay, I've gotta do that, gotta do that. And you know that you can do it. You're capable of it. You just have to have that self-belief and that determination and that grit to just do it every day and go through all those things, and you just get it done.
[00:38:37] Lauren: You don't panic, you know, because panic helps nobody. Yeah. And it's an opportunity, it's an amazing opportunity to make the book even better or to make the book actually decent. 'cause it's, it's quite bad in its early stages, isn't it? It's almost unreadable. So it's really nice that you don't have to show those terrible drafts to anybody except your editor and feels like a real privilege to be edited.
[00:38:59] Lauren: Always Still does.
[00:39:01] Pamela: Do you have other writers or beta readers or anything like that, that you share, share it with before it goes to. Editor or to you publish it.
[00:39:09] Lauren: So I find it really hard to do that because I change my mind a lot about things and then it feels like I've just wasted their time.
[00:39:19] Lauren: So there are points at which I will share, work with select people, but otherwise you know, yeah, it just goes to my editor. 'cause I just think, I don't want, I also don't want anybody else's vision to. You know, to interfere with my idea for the story, but I'm always open to, to when it gets to a certain stage, to getting friends to read it.
[00:39:40] Lauren: I think in the later stages it's really helpful because you know, they can, you've read it so many times and you kind of lose perspective at that point, right?
[00:39:49] Pamela: Yeah.
[00:39:49] Lauren: So you do need those fresh eyes on it, but then once you've used those fresh eyes, it's time for another pair of fresh eyes that's not gonna help you.
[00:39:57] Lauren: So yeah, I have a few, a few friends, and I was gonna say about the serendipity as well, that when I, I'm talking about ideas with my friends, sometimes they will pick things up and send them to me. They'll see things. So that's really helpful as well. So if you have a couple of good friends that you can just talk to about.
[00:40:12] Lauren: About your ideas and the story, even if they're not reading you know, every kind of chapter you could just tell them what's going on and then they might, they'll keep a lookout for things like that.
[00:40:22] Pamela: Yeah, definitely. I've had that experience. And in fact this morning I was doing a brainstorm with Ray CAIRs on oh yeah.
[00:40:30] Pamela: For my next story that I've got vague ideas for, I'd have to start very soon it's great to be able to just bounce ideas off other people I find, and just to really, yeah. Get that feedback and they'll say, no, no, no, that wouldn't work.
[00:40:42] Pamela: Or maybe you could try this, or whatever. Yeah. So, yes,
[00:40:44] Lauren: exactly. And I love editing as well. I actually love doing it for other people. So I did a manuscript assessment for someone a couple of weeks ago, and I just loved doing that so much. I could so see myself being an editor because it's just so fun to just tell people what's wrong with
[00:40:59] Pamela: it.
[00:40:59] Pamela: Isn't it easy to see it in somebody else's work? So much more so than your own?
[00:41:03] Lauren: It's thrilling. It was thrilling. I was really excited By the end of it, I was like, okay, this is what you gotta do now you just do this and this and it really good. Yeah. Totally different to our own work, isn't it? So fun.
[00:41:15] Pamela: We talked a little bit about retreats and things like that. Have you been to Una yourself? I actually haven't,
[00:41:21] Lauren: I know that's terrible, but I do find it hard to get away for a week because I've got my kids, you know, so, and I do think that that is a real barrier for a lot of parents.
[00:41:32] Lauren: Writers who were parents. Yeah. Yeah. I was leaving for a week, is quite difficult. I did do an online residency with them. Okay. So, yeah, so that was cool. I think I did it during the pandemic, which was really cool. So, you know, there was nothing else to do. So I just come down every day and we would do our writing and then we would check in in the evening.
[00:41:49] And I don't know, as long as you can lock yourself away in the, yeah. Somewhere else. And then in the evening you just go to bed like you normally do, all the benefits, but not actually having to go.
[00:41:59] Lauren: But we can't always do that, so.
[00:42:01] Pamela: It's amazing how you can find ways around things. But your kids are still quite young, Lauren, do you kind of find yourself doing a lot of writing at night and, you know, in the cracks type type thing?
[00:42:10] Lauren: I used to, but I find that my writing is very bad at night.
[00:42:14] Lauren: So I won't do it anymore. I just think there's no point at a certain. I'm just too tired and it's better for me to keep the regularity of like, I get up at five 30, I go to the gym, I do my workout, come home, drop the kids off start my work, work for a couple hours. Do pick up like that for me. Couple of hours of writing every day, six months to eight months.
[00:42:34] Lauren: That is enough for a first draft. And I think that's. Pretty good system. But of course, you know, you have to earn money as well. Like, you know, not everyone can do that full time, so it's really hard. But if you are happy to do all sorts of different things and you can make it work, I think that is the best system for me.
[00:42:51] Pamela: And are you doing any teaching, you know, you're teaching writing as well?
[00:42:54] Lauren: Yeah, so I teach, I've taught at the Faber Academy online. I've, I taught the historical fiction writing course for the last two years, so that was the, the inaugural course that they ran. And it was so good. And I'm doing it again this year, probably right in September or October, I think.
[00:43:11] Lauren: Over eight weeks now. And it's so great 'cause we get a historical writer in to talk to everyone. We get a publisher. So, and an editor, Vanessa did my, she, she was the editor last time and it's so cool 'cause you never really get to talk to the editors. We don't even get to talk to them, do we?
[00:43:27] Lauren: It's like a one-sided conversation. They just give you the letter and the annotations, and then you never hear from 'em again. When I first got edited, I was expecting we were gonna have a dialogue. I was writing comments back to her. Nobody told me that I would never talk to her again. It was so funny. I know
[00:43:45] Pamela: it's like this tasteless person on the other side of the computer.
[00:43:50] Pamela: Do what you want.
[00:43:52] Lauren: Yeah. So it's, that's a great course though. I love teaching it and every year I feel so enthused and excited about storytelling and, I can always find, as we were saying, you know, with the manuscript assessment, like you can always. Pinpoint other people's issues with the writing.
[00:44:09] Lauren: It's actually quite easy once you, you've written for a while to diagnose that stuff and it's quite enjoyable. And to be able to give people ideas as well at all recommendations for books that might help them. Yeah, yeah. You know, all those things I find really enjoyable. It's like having a group of friends for eight weeks writer friends, and then you just send them off into the world and go off and do their work, as you know.
[00:44:32] Lauren: 'cause you teach.
[00:44:33] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:44:33] Lauren: It's really satisfying actually. It takes a lot out of you, buddy. It's so satisfying.
[00:44:37] Pamela: Yeah, it's very inspiring and you always learn so much yourself, don't you? You know, it's that old adage about teaching is the best way of learning, so yeah, it's very
[00:44:45] Lauren: humbling.
[00:44:46] Lauren: Because you think, oh, like, what do I know? You do know a lot, but also they, they have things that they know that they can share with you.
[00:44:53] Pamela: Oh, definitely. Yeah. That's great that you're doing that.
[00:44:56] Pamela: Lauren, having you know, now this will be your fourth book out in the world. And also, working with other writers doing manuscript assessments, teaching, what do you think are the key sort of things that people who are yet to be published that are looking, you know, working on, in manuscript looking for publication?
[00:45:15] Pamela: What do you think are the key things they need to keep in mind about writing and publishing?
[00:45:22] Lauren: Probably just to make sure that you are doing it for the right reasons, and that you don't feel like you're rushing ahead because you wanna be somewhere you wanna get published, but that's, or that's a different step to, I want to finish my manuscript.
[00:45:38] Lauren: It's like taking it, scaling it back to the most basic. You know, goals I think is more achievable. And then you don't kind of fail because you're not disappointed in yourself that you can't achieve that crazy, because that's just so far ahead of, if you haven't even finished a manuscript, like that's your goal for the year or something like that. And you set a realistic deadline for yourself. If you're gonna take a week off work, you know, I'm gonna write. A chapter or something like that. I'm not, not, I'm gonna finish my work in my manuscript. So that's the thing that I always tell people when they're starting out with me.
[00:46:15] Lauren: And also to just keep reading, just keep reading all the time and keep interested as you say, you know, be open, be open to synchronicity and serendipity and things that might. Come into your work because those things are the things that make your story so unique, and you are noticing them and observing them and recording them and connecting them, I suppose, as ideas is what's unique about you as a writer.
[00:46:40] Lauren: Like that's something that nobody else can ever replicate or. You know, that they're not gonna be able to do, that's something that AI can't do. True.
[00:46:48] Lauren: And also, so be curious, I suppose is what I'm trying to say. And also keep ri reading.
[00:46:52] Lauren: Keep reading. I. Everything, everything that you can you know, like read a lot in your genre. Read historical novels, like read novels from the past is what I'm saying. Not historical novels, but read classics stuff that you know, from 10 years ago, 20 years ago, the, the big books, the big important, you know, controversial books.
[00:47:12] Pamela: Hmm. And are you someone that reads when you are working on a manuscript? 'cause I know there's, you know, a lot of writers I speak to on the podcast say they can't actually read or they don't read while they're working on a manuscript. Yeah.
[00:47:24] Lauren: Do you read?
[00:47:25] Lauren: I, I'm quite used to, but now I do because I just find that sometimes I, I actually do need to be reading. I'll usually have one or two books that just kind of click, make something, click for me. And they're usually completely not at all related to what I'm writing about. Yeah. So last year I read Fleischman is in Trouble, like completely not, but it's just getting, it gets you outta your own head.
[00:47:51] Lauren: And also it's like proof that. Those id someone's ideas became a book. Yeah. So I find it really inspiring to be reading something at the same time. Even if it's not related. I did read a book called Music and Silence by Rose Tremaine, and that was kind of in an inspiration for this book.
[00:48:08] Lauren: 'cause I love the way that that story is put together. It's so beautiful. So yeah, there are those, there are some stories that I think you read at the right time and they become. Part of the, like the touchstone books for your manuscript. Not that you're copying them, but you are inspired by them, you know?
[00:48:25] Lauren: And I think that's really nice. Yeah. Because we all take ideas from everything, you know, we're all inspired by various texts and movies. I would even say, like going to see the movies. I saw poor things a couple of weeks ago. It was so good.
[00:48:39] Lauren: Was it? I just felt like standing up at some point and being like, yeah, go girl, this is amazing. I felt that it was a really feminist film.
[00:48:47] Pamela: I'd like to see it actually after just reading about it and seeing it at the, you know, academy Awards and stuff. I
[00:48:52] Lauren: think you'd like it. It really felt like a real, like, resistance kind of movie.
[00:48:57] Lauren: It felt like if Mary Wool wool Stonecraft, if she had Mary Shelley, if she had written. Frankenstein and the way that she wanted to write it. Yeah. Because, you know, by Shelley like changed and edited it and stuff like that. That's what I reckon she would've written it. Because it's just like a female Frankenstein. It was so cool. So even seeing things like that can spark ideas. Yeah. So I think it's, I I still find it important to be absorbing other art forms, even if it's not right, like reading, but.
[00:49:28] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah, I think that's great advice and, and that idea of like being out in the world too, looking to, because writing can be so isolating and it's so tempting when you are working on a manuscript to kind of lock yourself away and just focus just on that story and just on that time.
[00:49:44] Pamela: But, you know, like you say, being open to other ideas and talking to people and, you know, listening to. Things on the radio or podcasts or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. Can can be really beneficial.
[00:49:55] Lauren: Yeah. That's why the pandemic was so depressing for right of artists, I think. Because we couldn't get out there. We were just locked in our own like little existences, you know?
[00:50:03] Lauren: And it's really hard to create when you're not. Engaging with the world.
[00:50:08] Pamela: Yeah. Yeah. I read well after interviewing Holly Ringland and reading her book on creativity. Yeah. I read a book or listened to it on audio, actually still like an artist that she recommended in there. And it's, it's good you can buy the audio book and it's a little bundle of three books that this guy writes.
[00:50:25] Pamela: I can't remember his name, but it was really interesting and just this idea that we draw so many ideas and inspirations from other things, and it's not. Stealing. It's not taking the story, it's just, you know, it's, it's inspiration. Exactly what, yeah. You're
[00:50:40] Lauren: reinterpreting it, you know, you're putting, connecting different ideas together.
[00:50:43] Lauren: Was it Jerry Salts? No, not Jerry Salts. He, he does, he's written something else.
[00:50:47] Pamela: Yeah, I'm, I can't even remember. It's in my audio thing. It's one of those things, you, it's really short, like it's four hours or something Nice. And it just goes through all these different, but yeah, Holly, Holly talked about it in her book on creativity and it's it's an interesting one.
[00:51:00] Lauren: Yeah. Yeah. That's interesting.
[00:51:02] Pamela: How do you find after this period of time of, of being out there in the publishing world, Lauren, how do you find the whole kind of business side of things and the, the promotional side and, you know, social media and that? Have you kind of got your head around that now
[00:51:16] Pamela: I just try not to
[00:51:17] Lauren: think about it too much. No, it's I don't know. I, it is funny 'cause it's at the start. You're so excited. You know, you're enthu so enthused by being able to connect to people about your work and then you kind of settle down a bit, don't you? Yeah. Settle down. And the readers, the people who are your readers, they find you.
[00:51:36] Lauren: Mm. And then you just wanna talk to them, you know? And so you kind of. I don't know, frame things in a way that, you know, that they'll be interested in. You don't show them all the facets of your life. Hopefully. I don't, that aren't gonna be interesting to them. Yeah, so like I would talk about if I'm traveling, you know, I take the photo, take photos of where I am, the artwork that I'm looking at, you know, or poetry that I like, just things like that.
[00:52:02] Lauren: Things that I think inform my work. So hopefully has a relevance to, you know what I'm trying to do, but also I do show some of myself because I think people do wanna, they do wanna connect with you on a personal level and feel like they know you a little bit, which they kind of do through your work anyway.
[00:52:21] Pamela: Yeah.
[00:52:22] Lauren: So I do post. Things that I like and little bits about my life. But I don't go crazy. As promotion starts, I, I post a bit more because people will be looking for that information. But yeah, I think you just have to, and that's, they always say in with publicity, just if as long as you feel comfortable doing it, then it will feel authentic.
[00:52:42] Lauren: But if it start, if it's feeling like, you know, you're just doing it because or sell or something, then it's gonna come across in, in your posts and things like that. Yeah,
[00:52:52] Pamela: yeah, for sure. I think authenticity's the key there, isn't it?
[00:52:55] Lauren: Yeah. But I also follow like a million people. I'm always more interested in what everyone else is doing Yeah.
[00:53:01] Lauren: Than what I'm doing.
[00:53:03] Pamela: This is a silly question. I, I know the answer, but I guess it's the extent to which you, you suffer from it. Do you suffer from imposter syndrome and, and how do you deal with that? You know, when that arises for you?
[00:53:15] Lauren: Yeah, I do. Yep. Oh, I can hear my cat meowing, Meow.
[00:53:19] Lauren: Keeping it real. He's keeping it real. He's like, mom, it's time to go to bed. Yeah, I do suffer from imposter syndrome a little less now, I think then at the start. Because I, I do know some things. I've learned some things and some of those things were really hard and, you know having your work judged.
[00:53:36] Lauren: Reading your Good Reads reviews, which I don't recommend. Very humbling, almost like taking a layer of skin off, up your back. But those things are, it is character building. It is true what they say about it because it's not you, you know, it's, this is just someone's opinion. And so I would really encourage people to. Use those programs or to to say how they feel. Maybe don't tag me. Yeah, I know. That's the thing. It's the tagging. I know. It's the tagging. When you see the tag up, you go, here we go. What's it gonna be today? How good am I feeling? Can I handle this? No. , I think just one of the best parts of writing is getting to know other writers, right.
[00:54:13] Lauren: And meeting other writers at festivals and, events and through social media. And when you talk to other writers and you see that vulnerable side of them, it makes you feel like we are all just the same really. We're all quite vulnerable, sensitive people. And it takes so much courage to write. It takes so much courage to put your work out there that I think we should all be really proud of ourselves for that.
[00:54:37] Lauren: So I, I do have imposter syndrome, but I also think we deserve. Yeah. You know, some recognition for how hard we work.
[00:54:45] Pamela: Well said. Yeah, I totally agree. It's taken me a long time to get to that point, but I think it, like you say it, is through experience and being out there and, and seeing other people and how they're, they're handling things, situations too,
[00:54:57] Pamela: yeah. And
[00:54:58] Lauren: also accompanying them like, you know, debut novelists who were maybe freaking out. You said, look. Don't just try to, not to stress about it. It's gonna be a bad couple weeks 'cause you're gonna worry. But then it will be over and it'll be, and it will be okay. You know? So it's, it's actually nice to be more of a mentor for those people.
[00:55:16] Lauren: Yeah. And that is a way of maybe getting rid of some of that imposter syndrome. Yeah.
[00:55:20] Pamela: And I think you realize that, you know, like we go into it probably very starry-eyed, you know, like everybody and I, I always. Try not to disillusion, debut authors because it's such an exciting time and it's, you want them to have that moment, you know, where you've got a book in your hand
[00:55:39] Lauren: yeah, so focus on that stuff. Don't worry about sales and because that stuff is kind of outta your control as well, so you just worry about the stuff that you can control.
[00:55:49] Pamela: Yeah. And, and you learn that as, as you go along, of course, like with everything in life. But it's been so lovely chatting to you, Lauren, and you know, I can't tell you how much I enjoyed the beauty.
[00:55:58] Pamela: It's fabulous book. Thank you. I feel like a. Very proud. Like I've just kind of seen you, you grow in your writing over the years and you know, really coming into your own and it, it's fantastic to see. But what would you say, I like to finish with this question with, my guess is what would you say is at the heart of your writing?
[00:56:16] Lauren: Hmm. I'd say it is that desire to understand. Our experiences, our shared experiences and just maybe provide a little bit of comfort to someone who is, you know, experiencing something that might be negative or, you know, upsetting and just to make them feel like they're not alone, I suppose. Because that's what books have always done for me.
[00:56:40] Lauren: So, yeah.
[00:56:42] Pamela: That's lovely. I love that. Thank you so much, Lauren. I wish you all the best with the book and you will be out doing a little bit of promotion in the coming weeks. I think this podcast will come out kind of the week after the book comes out, so, yeah. Where will readers be able to catch up with you?
[00:56:58] Lauren: So I'll be in Brisbane the week of the 15th, 16th I think for a couple of nights. And I'll be at Riverbend Books doing an event there with Melissa Ashley, the lovely, Melissa Ashley who wrote the Naturalist. Daughter and then I will be at readings in Carlton in Melbourne. Oh, readings Hawthorne actually.
[00:57:18] Lauren: Yeah. And who is doing that? Kelly Gardner. She's amazing. Lovely. Kelly Gardner. So she'll be hosting my event there and I'll be doing book signings around as well. Right. I'll be in Adelaide as well in May mid.
[00:57:29] Pamela: Anything in Sydney?
[00:57:31] Lauren: Oh, in Sydney. I'll be at Better Red Than Dead on the 5th of April, but that is probably before the podcast comes out.
[00:57:37] Lauren: And then I'll be doing book signings around on the 10th of April, so great sipping around Sydney. Yeah, with my publicist, I remind her to feed me. She goes into robot mood. I'm like, Anna, I need a drink, please. Food,
[00:57:51] Pamela: food, please. Well, I'd love to catch up with you on, on that and all the best with the book.
[00:57:56] Lauren: Thank you. Thanks, Pam.