Out of the Shadows: Jane Tara on Writing TILDA IS VISIBLE

Episode Summary

In this episode of Writes4Women, Meredith Jaffé delves into the life and writings of Jane Tara, exploring her latest novel TILDA IS VISIBLE. Tara shares her journey through personal discovery and the empowerment found in embracing one’s identity and the ageing process. Through a mix of humour, deep insights, and the exploration of visibility in women over fifty, Tara offers an enlightening conversation on the therapeutic aspects of writing and the transformative power of storytelling.

Episode Chapters

0:02:41 - Journey of Self-Discovery

0:09:07 - Character Development and Personal Inspiration

0:13:31 - The Perception of the Blind

0:19:14 - Story of Writing Through Grief

0:23:56 - Dual Internal Dialogue Discovery

0:39:16 - Research and Lived Experience in Writing

0:46:17 - Diverse Writing Experience and Strengths \

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jane: And it was only with the end of the relationship, this, epiphany I had about aging when I was misdiagnosed.

[00:00:10] Jane: And the subsequent journey that I went on by throwing myself into a meditation practice that made me look at my internal programs that I realized actually, he didn't matter how he saw me, didn't matter how anyone else sees me, doesn't matter. It's that I'd lost sight of myself and I really needed to learn who I am and stand in my own power. And I think that's how. We can be visible again

[00:00:40] Pamela: Welcome to Writes For Women, a podcast all about celebrating women's voices and supporting women writers. I'm Pamela Cook, women's fiction, author, writing teacher, mentor, and podcaster.

[00:00:56] Pamela: Before beginning today's chat, I would like to acknowledge and pay my respects to the Dal people, the traditional custodians of the land on which this podcast is being recorded, along with the traditional owners of the land throughout Australia

[00:01:10] Pamela: and a quick reminder that there could be strong language and adult concepts discussed in this podcast. So please be aware of this if you have children around. Now let's relax on the convo couch and chat to this week's guest.

[00:01:23] Jane: Hello, my name is Meredith Jeffe and I'm thrilled to be back on the convo couch for 2024 for rights for women. Today I am chatting with the writer Jane Tara. Jane. Tara has published over a hundred children's books, several plays ya in romance novels, as well as travel and educational books and journalism.

[00:01:43] Jane: She spent 13 years wandering the world and lived in five countries, but is now happily at home in Sydney. Jane is also the general manager of better reading, a community of engaged readers, and a powerhouse of support for Australian writing. Today we're here to talk about her new novel. Tilda is Visible, one of the Buzzies titles of the 2023 Frankfurt book Fair.

[00:02:06] Jane: Kathy letter called it Pitch Perfect. Joanna Nell says, it is delightfully original Rachel Johns calls it fresh, funny, smart, and warm. And Belinda Alexander says she laughed herself silly, and I'm adding my voice to those accolades. I'm looking forward to going behind the scenes with Jane today as we discuss the writing of Tilda is visible.

[00:02:29] Jane: Jane Tara, welcome.

[00:02:31] Meredith: Oh, thank you Meredith. Thanks for having me on here. I love this podcast. I, I listened to you and Pam and yeah. I'm thrilled to dig in deep.

[00:02:40] Jane: Okay. I think we need to start with the obvious question and give our listeners an idea about who Tilda is at the start of the story. Can you give us an overview of who she is and where she's at in her life?

[00:02:53] Meredith: Yeah, so Tilda is in her early fifties. Life has. Pretty good. She's content. She is in a place where she is financially okay. She has good friends. She has adult daughters and who she has a great relationship with. Everything's all right. And one morning she wakes up and her little finger is missing and she is diagnosed with invisibility.

[00:03:20] Meredith: And that is a condition that's prevalent in women over 50. And she starts a journey where she needs to actually face her past before she completely disappears. And that includes a divorce, but mostly it includes childhood trauma. So I guess you asked who she's at the beginning, but by the end, this is a woman who.

[00:03:43] Meredith: Like so many of us, we take, we're so used to doing everything for everyone else that, that we don't take that time out for ourselves sometimes to really look at who we are and see ourselves clearly heal things in our past. And by the end of the novel, Tilda has done that. So that's the journey that she goes on.

[00:04:08] Jane: On your website, you say Tilda is visible, is the novel I always wanted to write, but first I had to live it. Can you tell us what you mean by

[00:04:18] Meredith: Yeah in many ways Tilda is me. She didn't start off that way. She was a very minor character in a little short story I wrote, and I just she stuck with me. I liked the idea of a woman disappearing. But she was very different then. But then I, it, she stuck with me for about 10 years.

[00:04:36] Meredith: And so I started to explore the idea of Tilda, and then I started to write a bit more and write a bit more. And and then like many writers, the lockdown happened and, I had. Quite a manuscript by that point. I just had to finish it, but it wasn't it still wasn't me.

[00:04:57] Meredith: And I guess it was during that second lockdown that I really went in deep with Tilda and it, so I call it, it's like a spiral. The more I dug into her, the more I wanted her story to be authentic. I realized I needed to face my own and tell my own story. And so the two of us ended up merging in this fictional version.

[00:05:21] Meredith: And it is fiction really. It is fiction. But there are elements in my life that I've put into that, and I think that's why it's resonating. With with women because I think they can sense that when they're reading it. The idea of a woman disappearing is unusual. But actually the story, my story, my personal story, tilders personal story is quite a common story.

[00:05:44] Meredith: And so many of us have lived it in our own way.

[00:05:48] Jane: I think it's it's, the visibility issue is something that so many women can relate to, and I think that's where we need to start, because obviously that is the titular part of the story. So many women at a certain age start to notice that they're becoming invisible. As you say, Tilda wakes up one morning and she can't see her little finger anymore.

[00:06:10] Jane: And then this spreads as the novel goes on and we meet other characters, which we'll touch on a bit later. But I wanted to actually know from a writer's point of view, did the idea of Tilda physically disappearing? Was that part of the writing process or was it originally just the, a sense of disappearance, if you know what mean?

[00:06:30] Jane: Did you always think, oh, she will physically disappear?

[00:06:33] Meredith: Yes. Yeah. So that was the idea that dropped in. And I know that a lot of writers work like this. Like quite often an idea will drop in. It's a real sense of the story of the character. It's full and whole within itself, but then you need to find the rest of the book around it.

[00:06:54] Meredith: So the idea of this and. When I had her in the short story, she actually was missing a little finger, but she was a very different character. She was English, she was a florist in this, in my current one, she's a photographer. But it was that sense of the little finger is missing where, what happens from here as a woman, I'm starting to disappear.

[00:07:20] Meredith: It's that moment of recognition, what do I do about it?

[00:07:25] Jane: I love that she goes along to the invisibility support group for women suffering from invisibility called the Invisibility Advocacy Organization Run by Brenda. It's focuses on supporting sufferers. These are hilarious scenes for the listeners out there, hilarious scenes, especially when you have such wonderful characters such as Carol, who is now totally invisible and has decided to go naked this summer because no one can think about herself, so why bother?

[00:07:54] Jane: But it also felt like you were having a gentle prod at these kind of organizations. Is that right?

[00:08:02] Meredith: Uh, when I went into the edit, I realized that perhaps that had come out. I, look, I think that there is definitely room for these organizations. I guess what I wanted to show in Tilda was that, and this is a theme in the book that we definitely get what we focus on, and so the book, the, this particular support group isn't very supportive.

[00:08:27] Meredith: They're focused on their suffering and they get more of that, but I feel like, by the end of the book, I really liked Brenda who runs the support group. In my first draft, I, I, she was a quite a small character, but she's got a mighty energy and she came out in subsequent drafts and ended up being quite a powerhouse character, who herself goes on a journey and the way that she ends up perceiving.

[00:08:55] Meredith: The condition and herself at the end of the book has an influence on the support group. And because of that, it actually offers more support to women. I guess it's the idea of support. How can we support ourselves and certainly the way that we view ourselves and the way we speak about things is so important.

[00:09:18] Meredith: And so I like to think that the support group went on a journey as well by the end of the

[00:09:22] Jane: absolutely did, because when we start the novel, it is, Brenda practically says this is about suffering. And Tilda is not the only one in the group. Carol and Erica particular. I like, yeah, that's not really helpful and I really liked the fact that you say that Brenda ends up in a different place as well in the novel, which really rounds her out as a character.

[00:09:44] Jane: And then the other thing that's really. Wonderful is that Tilda who, as you say, is divorced and has not really had much success in the dating game for women of a certain age. And she accidentally meets a guy called Patrick. And Patrick has a degenerative condition that means he will eventually be totally blind.

[00:10:05] Jane: And it's a lovely opposition to Tilda from a writing perspective, obviously that she feels unseen and yet is seen by Patrick. But it's also, I'm assuming, based on your own health scare that you had a few years ago, can you tell us a little bit about that experience and how it informed the writing of that character?

[00:10:26] Meredith: I, so the health scare that you're talking about was that I was misdiagnosed with Retin ISIS pigmentosa, and that is what Patrick in the book has. It was a series of tests. I received the diagnosis and then I was referred to the Center for Eye Health at the University of New South Wales.

[00:10:43] Meredith: And but the appointment there, and they were apparently going to tell me where my sight was at, how much sight I had left, and give me a loose timeframe of when I was going to lose my sight. That's what they told me. But that appointment was nearly three months away. Like from diagnosis to that appointment.

[00:11:02] Meredith: I had a close to three months where I thought I was potentially going to lose my sight. And of course I did what tiled. Does in the book, I drank wine in bed in my robe and did a deep dive into Google and tried to find out what, my future had in store and all about sight and vision.

[00:11:24] Meredith: And then I started to go down this other rabbit hole about what it even means to see. And I discovered these incredible like ophthalmologists out there who are using light and and meditation and things like that. And some studies. One really interesting study, was using people who were blind from birth and had taught them to see through their chest, to see images and things through their chest.

[00:11:51] Meredith: Really fascinating, where is the mind's eye? How do we see these questions started to really, I started to reflect on them and that's where the idea for this novel. Started, it was inspired by this period of time, but one thing happened to me during this time. I was looking in the mirror one day.

[00:12:14] Meredith: I was 45 when this happened. And so I was already starting to feel invisible, certainly at home and starting to feel invisible out of the home as well. There was a shift happening and I was pretty critical of my wrinkles and myself. And one day I looked in the mirror and I just saw my face. And I really genuinely profoundly loved what I saw and thought, oh my God, am I not going to see myself age?

[00:12:47] Meredith: And it was a total shift. I can honestly say that was 10 years ago. I can honestly say that I am rarely critical of what I see in the mirror. Now, it happens there are times, but generally it is such a gift to see each line come up and the changes that happen as you get older. It's aging is a gift to see yourself age as a gift.

[00:13:14] Meredith: So many people don't make it, and I'm just embracing it. So the merging of what it means to see and embracing getting older, that, that sort of occurred for this story to happen. And that was what I explored really.

[00:13:30] Jane: And Pat, and the thing I really liked about Patrick too he was a very able person, Was highly successful business person. He was obviously, didn't really know what he looked like, but was very attuned to the, the other sensory stimuli around him. And saw Tilda in a way that even Tilda did not see herself.

[00:13:51] Jane: And I just thought that was a really magical part of her journey as well, is to be seen by someone who could not see, which was just a delightful sort of twist on that kind of idea.

[00:14:04] Meredith: I did. I spoke to a few site impaired people and Patrick a lot of his I guess approach to his condition was taken from a young woman who I spoke to, and I think in the acknowledgements. Absolutely phenomenal young woman who, you know, not only reads braille in four languages or something, but also reads the braille for music and, just a really incredible approach to life.

[00:14:34] Meredith: And so she really inspired a lot of his approach. And also she gave me sort of details about there's a condition that she used to have that is quite common apparently in sight impaired people where they can have these hallucinations. It's a Charles bonnet I think it's called disorder.

[00:14:52] Meredith: But anyway, her, she started meditating and was able to overcome that, so that sort of removed that problem from her condition. And so that's, what I did for Patrick as well. But yeah, so it was a really interesting. Journey learning from these people as well about how they actually see the world.

[00:15:15] Jane: Unlike Brenda from our invisibility advocacy group. The novel ask questions as to why women become invisible as we age and you draw a line directly between intergenerational trauma or childhood trauma and disappearing. What is your argument? What is the connection?

[00:15:34] Meredith: I think there are so many reasons why women feel invisible. And I chose that one to explore. I could have, and I touch on, the patriarchy and society and the media and all of those things that just weaved in slightly. But I wanted this to be the reason for Tilda, I think because it was mine.

[00:15:57] Meredith: This is I needed to be really honest and, authentic on the page, and I felt I think so many women get into their forties and we hit perimenopause, and we're only just starting to have a real conversation about perimenopause and menopause. Now, 10 years ago when I was in perimenopause, I, this conversation wasn't occurring.

[00:16:20] Meredith: I was in a pretty toxic relationship that. Has shades of the relationship in the novel, it's not completely that one, but shades of Tom, her ex-husband, and this perimenopause kind of shit show that was happening in my life every month, what comes first? Is it the stress of the relationship and not being seen, and not being seen in your home and you're doing everything for everyone and your hormones are going mental and you're being told that you're crazy.

[00:16:53] Meredith: And now women can go, oh, I'm not crazy. I'm actually in my forties. It's perimenopause. I can get some help. But 10 years ago I was like, oh, am I, and I honestly lost sight of myself, completely lost sight of myself in my forties.

[00:17:07] Jane: And it was only with the end of the relationship, this, epiphany I had about aging when I was misdiagnosed.

[00:17:17] Jane: And the subsequent journey that I went on by throwing myself into a meditation practice that made me look at my internal programs that I realized actually, he didn't matter how he saw me, didn't matter how anyone else sees me, doesn't matter. It's that I'd lost sight of myself and I really needed to learn who I am

[00:17:40] Meredith: and

[00:17:40] Jane: and stand in my own power.

[00:17:42] Jane: And I think that's how. We can be visible again,

[00:17:48] Meredith: and we're always going to be, overlooked by the young hipster who's serving at the bar. Or we're going to have the media against us. And, there's a bigger conversation about the patriarchy and everything, but on a very personal level, I feel more visible now than I've ever felt in my life.

[00:18:07] Jane: Interesting. And as you say, healing is a really important part of the story. I love that. Tilda with her friend runs a company called, this is a sign that puts inspirational quotes on merchandise a lot of which Tilda confesses that she has no idea what they actually mean.

[00:18:23] Meredith: Yes.

[00:18:25] Jane: She also sees Selma, a top-notch therapist, an older woman who is anything but.

[00:18:30] Jane: Invisible and this is her, her part of her journey towards healing and as you say, meditation. So as she goes on a meditation retreat. So healing is also really important to you as a person. So I just wondered in terms of that journey for you, how much of that personal journey did you think was important to inform the writing?

[00:18:53] Jane: What did you wanna say about the importance of self-healing? I.

[00:18:59] Meredith: That it's possible. I, if people knew where I came from and my past and where I am today, it's possible to heal is possible. But it, I think I. Writing Tilda was I talk about the spiral a lot, but it was, rounds around the spiral. It, I, I didn't mean to write a sort of self-help fiction book to start with.

[00:19:25] Meredith: I was just writing a story. I actually went into lockdown, the second lockdown when I was committed. To writing this I really wanted to get this done, but just before we went into the second lockdown, I lost someone who I loved very dearly. Suddenly he died of a heart attack. So I went into the second lockdown, deep in grief, and, just being stuck there in the house, not able to go anywhere.

[00:19:54] Meredith: Who knows what's happening in the world grieving this man. And I just wrote, and I meditated. And I meditated because I know that it's a tool that can get you through anything in life. It really is. And so as that was happening, I weaved it into the story more. And also, I guess at the end of the day, this is something I enjoy.

[00:20:20] Meredith: I love personal development. I'm a passionate meditator. But I'm really, I'm not an expert in that field. I'm not gonna write a book about meditation or self-help or neuroplasticity. All I can do is show rather than tell, so I can show how it has actually impacted my life through an entertaining story.

[00:20:42] Meredith: And I thought if that was published out there because of my interest in personal development, I'd love to read it. But there's not a lot of that out there. So I thought, oh I'll write it.

[00:20:52] Jane: The other thing I really. Love too. And I really, this really spoke to me too is I'm gonna call her a character, although that's not quite correct, is Pearl.

[00:21:00] Meredith: Yes.

[00:21:00] Jane: I can't even remember what it stands for now. But part of her therapy program with Selma is that she learns about Pearl and you use that to great effect in the novel.

[00:21:09] Jane: Just, let's just talk a little bit about what Pearl is and why you chose to have those internal conversations with Tilda and Pearl in the novel.

[00:21:18] Meredith: So Pearl is program everything, always repeat loop, and it's our internal program. And we all have a version of Pearl who is just feeding back information as we have taken it in. And of course, value tags, information, by importance, depending on the way that we perceive the world. So if we see it as a really hard place, then Pearl is going to automatically go through like a database and throw back.

[00:21:52] Meredith: All of the past events and conversations and everything to show that we are right, now we can actually change Pearl and use her to our advantage. So I see Pearl as like that negative Nelly, the old neighbor who gossips too much and whatever, and she sits there and she's really I guess if you got to know Pearl, you'd understand that she's rooted in fear, so you have to be kind to her, for her to be kind to you and just say, look, what you're telling me now is not true. It's not real. It didn't happen. All of these things that we've got going on in our head, are they true? Are they real? Did they happen? And then and this is why I find meditation so effective.

[00:22:37] Meredith: You can rewire her to be kinder. Now, you're never going to completely rewire, all the negativity out of pearl. But you can certainly wire a lot of positivity in. And I, until I was introduced to my internal program, I didn't know it existed at all. And when I did, it was like mind blown.

[00:22:59] Meredith: And once that genie is out of the bottle, there's no shoving it back in. So you either live with the drama and the lies, and all the stuff that Pearl makes up. Or you can sit with her and have a relationship with her, be kind and change things. And ultimately you're having a relationship with yourself.

[00:23:22] Jane: But I love the way that you actually had it as dialogue. In the novel and actually see and I laughed because you know what, as you say, we all do it. I did it to myself this morning. 'cause I didn't finish writing these notes for this interview yesterday afternoon. 'cause I was tired having edited my novel all day.

[00:23:38] Jane: But you know what I told myself I was lazy, and it's just, that's exactly the stuff you do to yourself that you go, I wasn't lazy, I was buggered,

[00:23:47] Meredith: yes. And it's.

[00:23:49] Jane: yeah. And I got it done and I did it this morning when I was fresh and I could actually have a coherent conversation with myself.

[00:23:56] Jane: So yes, I keep going around since I finished reading the novel going, that's just pearl.

[00:24:01] Meredith: It's good. And I'm getting a lot of feedback about that because I think it's really, you know, I can remember taking off on a plane a couple of years ago and Pearl was like, and I get a little bit nervous about flying and I shouldn't, my bloke is a pilot, but anyway, and I'm sitting there on this plane taking off and pearl's oh, it's awful.

[00:24:21] Meredith: It's gonna be, and she's screaming and I just went. Sit down Pearl. And it was like this other character walked into my head who was like empowered and she sat pearl in a chair and she went, listen, you know enough out of you. It's, this is exciting. This is an adventure, and suddenly I had these kind of two sides of the internal program.

[00:24:46] Meredith: They both come up. Sometimes I feel the dialogue in, in, the program inside my head is really great and I listen to it and it's positive and oh my God, it's just wonderful to have that at all. Particularly when I'm tired, Pearl will still have a good old nag to me.

[00:25:03] Jane: She sure does. We touched on this earlier too, but we, I wanna talk about aging and women's relationship with aging and the message. In your novel, and obviously from what you've said earlier to a different question is that aging is a privilege and something to be embraced. And I loved that you had so many older characters in the novel such as Tilders Mother Francis, her neighbor Mave, and her therapist Selma, who are all kind of Campion older women, not invisible.

[00:25:32] Jane: And it seemed to me that these older women were much more seen than Tilda felt that she was. And I, and it also feels like that's a conversation that we need to have. I don't know about you, we both read a lot, but there's, it's really. Can be difficult to find positive older female characters in novels who aren't somehow I don't know, that are vibrant and three dimensional and not serving some story function.

[00:25:59] Jane: Is that what you set out to do is to create women of all generations and all levels of fabulousness despite age.

[00:26:07] Meredith: I didn't set out to do it. I just know so many great older women. Like I, and ever I was in my twenties and I would hang out with women in their seventies and eighties. I have a background in theater, that's where I started. And there used to be some fabulous old, older playwrights.

[00:26:23] Meredith: And I was at the bedside of my drama teacher when she died in her eighties with seven women around her bed, like sending off the high priestess into, the midst of Avalon, it felt like. But she was probably the most vibrant woman I've ever met, apart from my mother. And and Selma is very much based on her, very much based on Zika was her name.

[00:26:51] Meredith: So I've just always had friendships with older women. I like older women and so I just wrote about them. But I think there's a lot of authors who are writing in this space now. Have certainly blazed the trail and I've noticed at better reading, there are half a dozen, at least great debuts coming out this year with the protagonists are at least in their fifties, but often in their sixties and beyond.

[00:27:19] Meredith: Um, it makes sense. The majority of people who buy books are over women over 45. We want our stories told.

[00:27:28] Jane: Absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And it was exactly that sentiment that led to my last novel was like, you're talking about menopause earlier and how there was no conversation around it. And that was exactly it. I just set out to write a woman who was empty nesting, menopause, all the things that were going on for

[00:27:44] Meredith: The tricky art of forgiveness. Is that Yeah. Great.

[00:27:47] Jane: who are in this period of life that we weren't talking about it. And like you say, it's great that the media and people are picking up on the perimenopause thing, but I tell you what I learned, like you, I learned a lot of stuff the hard way during that period.

[00:28:03] Jane: There's also the story of Erica who was in a dangerous marriage. And the inference I took from this, anyway, correct me if I'm wrong, and the inference being that she's becoming invisible in order to hide away or, and also because she's reduced by this experience, this co corrosive relationship.

[00:28:22] Jane: Is that a correct reading of it or are you saying that domestic violence is a particular way of becoming invisible.

[00:28:30] Meredith: I I think, yes, the latter. It is a particular way of becoming invisible, but I think there are so many different reasons why women become invisible, but I do think that women who are in violent situations are invisible in so many ways. And. Sometimes even because they're trying to protect the perpetrator in some way.

[00:28:59] Meredith: Look, that's, so I, I have personal experience. I feel quite comfortable writing in the space and talking about both tilders childhood experience with domestic violence and also Erica's and. That situation where they rescue her. In the book that actually happened it was a friend of mine, her daughter was in exactly that situation.

[00:29:30] Meredith: It was two cars of us who went in beanies and masks and taped over our number plates because the police couldn't get her out. We needed to get her out of the situation and then she went and reported to the police and, the doctor had set up us coming and getting her out of there.

[00:29:48] Meredith: And we rescued her dog in my novel, it's the cat. And, and the outcome for her has been wonderful. She's great now, but so anyone who goes, oh, this actually happened. It did happen. And it was utterly terrifying for me because this particular guy who has, been to court now and everything, but he used to come home randomly to check on her as well.

[00:30:12] Meredith: So we knew we had to get in and out of there very quickly. And she left with very little. However she was, I. A lot younger. She was in her early twenties. So I think, she was very lucky that she had a very strong mother who refused to allow her to stay in that situation and good friends.

[00:30:28] Meredith: And we went in and we got her out of there. There are people who don't have that support network and I think Erica was one of them. Because in these situations, they're so often cut off from community, from friends and family as well, and you just start to disappear, and and I think that's Erica's story in there.

[00:30:50] Meredith: And I'd like to think that Erica has a happy ending as well. That's how I finished it hopeful for her, knowing that she had a long journey ahead of her to heal, but but that she would.

[00:31:03] Jane: I thought she was an incredibly good character. All of this is tackled, with great compassion and humor, and I think from your answers that in this, conversation today, it's obvious that you have deep compassion. Humor is a particularly useful tool, but it's also very I guess precarious or fragile tool for writers to use.

[00:31:24] Jane: 'cause we don't all find the same things. Funny. But did you start out writing it as a funny story? Did you have to lighten it as you went through the editorial process? What did humor allow you to do with some of these really quite deep and meaningful and difficult topics?

[00:31:39] Meredith: It's just how I write and, and probably how I speak in my real life as well. But so I started as a playwright and that's my background in writing from very early on. And so I love dial log. I love snappy, funny dialogue to drive a story forward and that I think. Is how I drive my stories forward in novels now as well.

[00:32:08] Meredith: It just comes out, I've sat down in the past, not for many years, but in the past, you look at some really great literary writers and I've sat down, I've tried to find a voice that didn't have that, just humor and lightness to it. And I don't have one. It's just not there.

[00:32:28] Meredith: But I understand the purpose of this now. I think it's, I think it's just who I am as a writer to be able to explore some fairly serious themes, but do it in an entertaining way. And I love entertaining people. If I can make people laugh, then great. We need more of it in the world. I think.

[00:32:50] Jane: I think humor also allows you to find joy in the story, because often even in weird or difficult or traumatic circumstances, there can be humor in, in life. And I think putting joy on the page is a great way of adding a different perspective to a situation. But I also think, surely for you as a writer, it gives you joy in the writing and then that ends up in the page as well.

[00:33:16] Jane: Yeah.

[00:33:17] Meredith: I love it. I love, writing sort of funny lines or finding the best way to say something that, people could find amusing. But, and also I love black humor as well, because, my experience, I think humans love to laugh. And, in extremely traumatic situations, I have seen people make jokes and say things that, crack people up because that's how we survive.

[00:33:49] Meredith: That's the gift that humans have to be able to make each other laugh in situations that otherwise how do you get through? And I like drawing upon that and, weaving it in somehow, somewhere. And usually, yeah, I think for me, the one thing I need to watch out for is that my characters don't have the same sense of humor.

[00:34:11] Jane: Interesting

[00:34:12] Meredith: be. Yeah. Yeah. There's gotta be different one sort of makes puns, one's not really funny, but then we'll have a dry wit one will. So that's what I tend to look for.

[00:34:22] Jane: You described the writing process of Tilda is visible as hard healing and freeing. I wanna know, first of all, in what ways was it hard?

[00:34:33] Meredith: I said, I really went into finishing this novel at a time when I was deeply grieving someone. So that was really hard. But at the same time I was very much healing a past relationship. And it's interesting in the edits as I've gone through those and the editing process, I've had to revisit stuff that more, yeah, it's a little bit uncomfortable for me.

[00:35:03] Meredith: And yet I feel like I purged it all, so I can read it. I'm actually editing Tilda at the moment for the American version and only over the weekend I was at one particular point that Tom does something to her and I was reading it again and I just wanted to clock him, but at the same time I am.

[00:35:26] Meredith: So it's Tilda got it all out. Thank you. Cheaper than therapy,

[00:35:33] Jane: absolutely. And what were the things that were healing and freeing about it? I guess you just touched on it, but was there more that you found healing and freeing about it?

[00:35:43] Meredith: Just getting it out, just, and really being clear about what it was. And also, the character of Tom with each rewrite, I had more compassion for him as well. Just, we're all humans just having a human experience. And he'd left Tilda with quite a lot of baggage.

[00:36:03] Meredith: If we're honest, Tilda had come into that relationship with that baggage. She'd been looking for someone who was almost going to give her a certain experience. And Tom enabled. That, and I felt for Tom Moore by the end of it and was able to write a little bit in there that just set him free a bit.

[00:36:23] Meredith: He wasn't going to rent space in her head anymore. Yeah.

[00:36:27] Jane: But I also like the fact that he didn't really change. Like when you have the meeting towards the end of the novel, when he's with the new partner, Linda, I think it was. And and then Toda sees that the same dynamic is

[00:36:39] Meredith: Oh yes.

[00:36:40] Jane: her and I, I cringed, Tom to me was in one sense. He was an incredibly familiar figure, a, an incredibly familiar style of guy that I think we won't be islands. I think a lot of women are gonna recognize Tom in the novel, whether they had a lucky escape or, it was a long journey to get out of it. But I just, as soon as I saw him, I went narcissist.

[00:37:03] Jane: But yeah, I think also going back to the perimenopause, menopause discussion, I think we also have a lot more useful labels in a commas, but we understand more about this power dynamic in our personal relationships, a lot more thanks to, again, a lot more conversations around domestic violence, coercive control, gaslighting, narcissism, et cetera.

[00:37:26] Jane: And I thought that you really finally balanced Tom, that he wasn't a cardboard cutout, he wasn't completely dislikable, he wasn't just fulfilling a story function that you actually rounded him out to be? Yeah. Like you say that Tilda was, did not go into that with her eyes open, shall we say, because she didn't even know who she was and so

[00:37:46] Meredith: That's right. But also, as you say, we have a lot more information that's out there now and, understand what red flags might be. And, there are behaviors in men that you don't know until you're well into it. And particularly if someone isn't outwardly abusive,

[00:38:05] Jane: yes.

[00:38:05] Meredith: And I think in the book, I have stonewalling as an example of that, so this is someone who, in their mind they're cutting off from the hysterical woman and behaving in a way that, you know, but it's a control.

[00:38:18] Meredith: It's a form of abuse. So you don't know until you've started to experience these things. And then at first a woman thinks they're crazy and then they go down the rabbit hole and they find out that they're not and everything. So for me to get it down, on paper and just go, oh wow.

[00:38:36] Meredith: I am free of that. I am free. And there it is. There's my story. I've told my story, which is fantastic. And as I say, it's not completely, my, my ex and also the father of my children is not Tom. So I actually have a really great relationship with my ex-husband, who's fantastic.

[00:38:58] Meredith: But I did take a few of the experiences I had in a relationship after him and put that onto paper. Be nice to a writer.

[00:39:06] Jane: Yeah. Yeah, I know. I always warn my friends as well. Do not tell me anything that you do not wanna end up on the page.

[00:39:12] Meredith: he's lucky I didn't kill him off. Yeah.

[00:39:14] Jane: right. Exactly. Let's talk about research a little bit. I Can tell that there was a lot of lived experience on the page with this book.

[00:39:22] Jane: You are a massive advocate of meditation and you also talk about therapy and retreats. Was it I guess my question was really more that, was it a matter of corralling all of this into one place or did you set out to specifically research particular topics so that you could make sure that what was on the page was accurate and reflective of the true situation?

[00:39:46] Jane: You touched on interviewing people who were site impaired, but did you do it in other areas of this novel as well?

[00:39:53] Meredith: Look, I've been. Exploring the field of personal development in various ways. Since I was in my very early twenties and in fact I first experimented with meditation. I was living in Japan. I was 22 and studied over there. I think a lot of what I bring into the novel is years and years of experience.

[00:40:16] Meredith: Now the Tilda goes to a vipasana retreat. I've done that and I do write in the author's notes because I won't ruin it for anyone who

[00:40:25] Meredith: hasn't read

[00:40:26] Jane: I did I

[00:40:26] Jane: loved the author's note because I was like, interesting.

[00:40:30] Meredith: Yes. Yeah, because I needed to change it up a little bit for Tilda particular story. But I did the retreat. It was very bene, it was hell actually let's, yeah, it was hell, my mind isn't, was not a happy place at that point. I didn't expect a spa retreat or anything, but I certainly expected something a bit more relaxing and it was tough going, very beneficial though.

[00:40:53] Meredith: And I continued with that style for a few years. But I never really enjoyed it. I also ride at the back that I now do Dr. Joe dispenses meditations and work Now. I had completely given up on personal development completely for a few years because. For me, I was still unhappy and nothing had worked.

[00:41:17] Meredith: And it was just bet before I turned 50 and I'm now 55 that a friend of mine who she dragged me along to something for Dr. Joan and I really was not interested at all. It has changed my life. Now I'm not saying that would change everyone's life, but he uses a kind of merging of science, neuroplasticity and meditation, and it just really worked for me.

[00:41:44] Meredith: I love the community. People hold you accountable. We meditate together. It's just, it's fun. It's a lot of fun. And I think that I didn't have fun with the Ana, but now I have fun with this. There's a lot of joy in my life with this meditation practice, and it just comes out into everything that I do really.

[00:42:03] Meredith: I did research more of around neuroplasticity and stuff and kind of worked that in. And it was just me really, it was my journey. I've done so much research over so long, I just went, okay, time to write about it,

[00:42:17] Jane: that's right. Get it on the page. It I'm talking of writing. It seems to me you're an incredibly busy woman. You're the general manager at Better Reading by day, and I presume you write around that. What is the better reading community given you that is unique or special?

[00:42:35] Meredith: I think my job has been a gift to me, single mom and working in a job where I get to talk about books and talk to writers and read. It's amazing. Um. Was unexpected and that has come out of it is that the community is amazing, predominantly, and this is on Facebook 'cause we have quite a large platform, but on Facebook it is some predominantly women.

[00:43:05] Meredith: Over 45 we have, we reach nearly 5 million or just over 5 million a month on Facebook alone. And yet we rarely get trolled. Rarely, it is a safe space for people to come and talk about books, but also to disagree without, everyone's arguing about something, and so you get to know the readers, you get to know them coming to the events and chatting in the comments, and putting comments on the page and everything.

[00:43:37] Meredith: And, you become very attached to the regulars. So I love the community feel of better reading, and particularly on Facebook. And I just love that, people can talk about, oh respectfully disagree on something that they've bred. I love the respect.

[00:43:56] Jane: Interesting. And so when do you write, how does that when do you write, how does that unpro fold for you? And do you have any particular routines around your writing?

[00:44:06] Meredith: I generally write a couple of nights a week, and then on weekends I wish, I had more time to write. I don't at the moment. When at the beginning of the podcast you read out what I'd done. I have been writing for decades. But I was a single mom for a very long time and I was a freelancer for a very long time.

[00:44:28] Meredith: So my writing was quite different back then. And I'd be at every school assembly, but then writing until 4:00 AM to meet a deadline on a children's textbook, so better reading has given me the stability to just go, okay, it's Wednesday night and I've got three hours and I'm sitting down and I'm writing.

[00:44:45] Meredith: Work. You've just gotta sit down and put those words on the page because I think that writing, writing that first draft isn't really writing. Once that's down, then you go back and you really start the process of working out what a novel is. At least that's the way that it works for me.

[00:45:03] Meredith: I just, that first draft is quite dreadful, actually.

[00:45:08] Jane: I know it's all, and you come back to it after you've supposedly given it a decent amount of breathing space and you look squinting at it going, oh my infra, nasty. A nasty surprise, or a pleasant one, or a

[00:45:19] Jane: blend.

[00:45:20] Meredith: absolutely. But see, I love editing.

[00:45:23] Jane: me too.

[00:45:24] Meredith: I love it. I love going back and looking for the story, and I'm happy to delete words and get rid of things and whatever. So I love that process. It's a little bit like decluttering for me. I'm a great declutter. So I go back and I find the space in the manuscript.

[00:45:38] Jane: I think also too, that when you write op-eds or jour journalism, feature articles, whatever, when you've been given, a strict word count to deliver by a certain date, is that you become a lot less precious about words, I think because it's about how can I most cleanly articulate this idea rather than, oh, I lay it over that sentence for hours or days or weeks or whatever.

[00:46:00] Jane: Who's got the time?

[00:46:01] Meredith: That's right. And you do, you just, yeah. The whipper snapper to them. I, there occasionally will be a line that I will save for later. 'cause I'm like, oh, that was a good one. I really hate getting rid of that. But but it's gotta go for the purpose of the story.

[00:46:15] Jane: Yeah, it totally. And the other thing I, that struck me, 'cause I didn't actually know that you'd written as much as you have before I researched this this interview. And the thing that also struck me is you've written a lot and you've written across genres and styles, and I wondered therefore how that informs your strengths as a writer.

[00:46:36] Jane: Do you have to strive to improve the stuff that you're not good at? Or do you focus on just writing to your strengths? What is all that writing experience and publication experience brought to where you are as a writer today?

[00:46:49] Meredith: Interestingly, I am dyslexic. So I do have some struggles around writing. But the universe has a sense of humor and, I was created as someone who needed to write despite it all. I find, dialogue is. The easiest way for me to express myself. And I guess that's why I started as a playwright.

[00:47:09] Meredith: Many lifetimes ago I had a couple of screenplays optioned in la which I wrote and in fact my very first novel, I had won a playwriting competition in New York and I was picked up by an agency over there and they said, do you have any ideas for a book or anything? And I told them an idea that I had, which was it, my first romance novel.

[00:47:34] Meredith: And and I, so they said, write it. We'd love to see it. So I wrote it. They read it, they loved parts of it, but they got back to me and they said, how about you write the screenplay for it? And I did that. And they went, now sit down with the screenplay and use that as your structure to rewrite your novel.

[00:47:53] Meredith: Yeah. I still tend to think in, the form of a, play or film or something, and the dialogue that drives something forward. And that used to concern me a little bit about my writing and how I delivered a story. But actually I think I've found my balance with it.

[00:48:12] Meredith: It's not, I could just deliver the whole story in dialogue. It's,

[00:48:15] Jane: And also isn't if I'm correct, screenwriting would also be in about 70 pages.

[00:48:20] Meredith: Yes. Yeah. I think, yeah. Yeah. That's right.

[00:48:24] Jane: Very pithy.

[00:48:25] Meredith: Yeah.

[00:48:27] Jane: Tilda is visible, is out on February 27 as we are recording this. And I'm very impressed 'cause it's sold into us and into Italy and probably since I read that, it's probably sold into more places as well. I was reflecting on this as I was writing these notes. I was thinking it in a way reminds me of that.

[00:48:44] Jane: Oh, it's in the same space as Bon Gareth's lessons in chemistry in that I think that, one of the reasons to me that book has been so successful is it doesn't matter what nationality you are or what culture you are, that experience is is a universal experience. And it feels to me that Tilda is visible is very much in the same place.

[00:49:05] Jane: And so o obviously I hope that it brings you with every success that Bonnie's

[00:49:11] Jane: had with lessons in Che, I know with lessons in chemistry. Um. What's going on at the moment with the book out there? You just mentioned you're doing some copy edits on the US version, but what's all the exciting stuff in the buzz in the lead up to the book coming out?

[00:49:24] Meredith: There's been so much going on and some of it I can't even talk about at the moment, but some really exciting things. But I guess I'm trying not to think too broadly at the moment. And I'm looking at what I need to do each day and, focusing on that. Focusing and also really enjoying that moment.

[00:49:43] Meredith: And Tilda is out I'm really excited about Australian readers getting their hands on Tilda. I had a a road show. A firm does their annual road show with some authors talking about their books to books, sellers and everything, and. After the speeches, I had so many booksellers, particularly female, older female, booksellers coming up to me and talking to me.

[00:50:09] Meredith: And that is what I really wanna focus on with what's happening with Tilda. If I can reach women and they talk to me about how they feel invisible or how something in the novel spoke to them and their own personal experience, it's just, going from the heart, that's, that means everything to me, just remaining centered in that

[00:50:33] Jane: How do you remain centered in that?

[00:50:36] Meredith: I

[00:50:36] Meredith: meditate.

[00:50:37] Jane: ah, yes. No. Okay. Yes, of course meditation. But I was gonna say if you've got a new working in progress, have you got one? Is that what you do need? Are you getting the pressure with such a fabulous book to come up with the next fabulous book?

[00:50:50] Meredith: Yes, I, but I'm only like about 15,000 words into it, and I've had to put it aside just to manage everything that's going on at the moment. But I will return back to that, and it is it's calling to me and it's on my mind the whole time, and I'm enjoying the time just to really work through the threads of, who the characters are and where they're all going to go in this particular story.

[00:51:14] Jane: But I also think it's really important and sometimes you get robbed of this when you've got books coming out, but I think it is really important to live in the moment when you've got a book being released and to, and enjoy, the experiences that you have with readers and interviewers and all that kind of stuff along the way because it can be a little overwhelming and really crowd your head space if you're trying to write at the same time.

[00:51:36] Jane: I think it's, if possible, better to not do that.

[00:51:40] Meredith: Yeah, I've just popped it aside for the moment there. There'll be some really great I'm looking forward to dropping into bookshops and meeting people. There's a, whole list of bookshops being set up for me.

[00:51:50] Jane: Sounds amazing. I re I hope you have an absolute ball with it all and I do hope my predictions are right, that the book will just take off.

[00:51:57] Meredith: I hope you've got tarot cards there, Meredith telling you that.

[00:52:01] Jane: I actually do have tarot cards. I haven't read for a while, but I used to read a lot.

[00:52:05] Jane: But anyway, that's a different conversation. But yeah, I hope I'm right too. Look. Jane, what can I say? Thank you so much for spending time with us today on the Convo Couch. It's such a pleasure to chat to. You'll meet you almost in real life,

[00:52:19] Jane: And talk about the craft of your novel. Tilda is Visible, is such a fresh, vibrant, deep, and funny book.

[00:52:26] Jane: It ticks so many boxes and like I say, it's a very universal story. I am sure it is gonna fly off the shelves. Congratulations and thank you to Writes for Women as well, for having us here today and allowing me to be a guest host on this chat. And for our listeners, you can find out more about Jane Tara and her writing on her website, www.janetara.com.

[00:52:50] Jane: She's on socials, is at Author Jane Tara. She also has a substack like me, so you can find her. You'll have to remind me, Jane, what's the substack called again?

[00:52:59] Meredith: Oh I think it's author Jane Tar or Jane Tara, author. I,

[00:53:03] Jane: You know what, I've got the book right here in front of me. Let's just quickly go to the page. At Jane Tara on

[00:53:09] Jane: Substack. Yeah. There you go. Don't worry. I know. You'll get to be like that, doesn't it? And of course, by the time this goes live, you probably will find Tilda is visible, available in all your favorite bookstores or your local libraries.

[00:53:23] Jane: Jane Tara, thank you.

[00:53:25] Meredith: Oh, thanks Meredith. Thank you so much for such a great conversation.